Do Atheist Go to Hell? | Denise – Portland, OR | Atheist Experience 672Jean Kelley November 19, 2019 100 Comments
Alright, we’ve got Denise in Portland.
How are you? Good, how are you? M: We’re doing well.
J: Hi, Denise. What’s up? D: Well, I’m on a Facebook,
it’s called “The Holy Bible Page” and one of the atheists
challenged us to call in, so I did. I am a Christian and
make no bones about it. J: Okay. And what can we do for you? D: I just called in to chat. J: Not anything in particular?
D: No, well … D: It’s truly disheartening how many
of the atheists are former believers. And I realize that. But I don’t think they realize
what’s going to happen to them in the end. M: I think you’re right. M: I don’t think any of us knows
what’s going to happen. D: I believe in a literal hell. Where are
they going to end up when they die? D: Have you thought about it? J: You say you believe in a literal hell?
D: Yes, I do. J: And you think that we atheists
deserve to go there. D: No.
J: We don’t? J: Then how come … Ma’am?
D: I don’t want anybody to go. J: You believe there’s a hell. And you believe the atheists
are going to go there. Because why? You guys
are going to send us there? D: No. They send themselves there
by rejecting Jesus as their saviour. J: No, that’s silly. I am choosing
right now I don’t want to go to hell. So now your god has the option
of either sending me or not. D: Jesus has thrown you a life preserver.
That’s why he’s called the saviour. You guys have been
ridiculous enough to reject it. M: Where did hell come from? D: It’s in the bible. He spoke about it
many times, I believe in it. If you … M: No, no. Denise, a question:
Did god create hell? D: God originally created hell
for Satan and the demons. [Not for us.] M: Sure. So, why did god decide
to start sending people there? D: He doesn’t send them to hell.
You guys send yourselves. J: We don’t. That’s nonsense. If we have
the choice, we choose not to go. Now the ball’s back in gods court.
If he wants to send us, he can. [Will he?] D: You send yourselves.
J: No, we don’t! That’s ridiculous. D: You send yourselves.
J: No, that’s ridiculous. M: It doesn’t matter how many times
you keep repeating this. D: You keep repeating your stuff! M: I tried something else:
Did god create hell? Then he’s ultimately responsible, correct?
Does he not make the rules? Denise, did things not happen
according to your god’s will? Does he not already know …
D: He is everybody’s god, [not just mine]. M: No, not my god. I don’t
even believe he exists. But in any case, I don’t care. I’m trying get to the source
of the problem here. It’s this: you were saying,
Jesus threw you a life preserver. As for [me], within the bounds of
your theology, Jesus kicked me overboard. D: He didn’t kick you overboard.
M: Sure he did. M: Did your god create hell? Yes or no?
D: Yes. M: Did your god create
the rules of the universe, including the criteria
by which souls are judged? D: Yes. M: Does anything happen
that doesn’t [follow] your god’s will? D: No. M: Then your god is ultimately
responsible for everything, including the people
who he sends to hell. D: That’s so messed up! M: Yeah, that logic stuff
is a real pain in the ass. D: When you reject him, that’s the
dumbest thing you can possibly do. D: That’s why he’s called the saviour. J: And I have a question.
What are we being saved from, exactly? D: You’re being saved from
eternal damnation, hell. Hell. D: Have you ever been a Christian?
J: Yes, I was. D: For how many years?
J: Until I was about 21, 22. D: What happened? J: I thought about whether
there was any reason to believe any of that stuff. And it scared me. Because I had been raised
to believe in a kind and loving god but to fear this kind and loving god. Every time it occurred to me to question, my fear got in the way. Eventually, I said to myself,
if god is really kind and loving, he’s not going to mind
me using my brain that he gave me, to think clearly, carefully and rationally
about what I’ve been taught and to make my own decision. The moment that I realized a kind and loving god
was not to be feared when I’m considering
rethinking my beliefs, that gave me the freedom
to think clearly about my beliefs. Within a minute, I realized
this is all nonsense, I’m an atheist. M: And I go one step further here. Even if I were to concede your,
[I think], ridiculous framing that god doesn’t send people,
they send themselves to hell. Even if I were to accept that — I won’t even necessarily go
to the [valid] mafia boss analogy — my point of view is this: You have a being,
according to your theology, that can possibly prevent people
from having to suffer eternally. And he, instead of being good, just,
caring and actually doing that, is offering a kind of bribe. The bribe is, you need to believe
without evidence and you need to worship, adhere
and follow my commands. That’s not love.
That is not … M: That is not an exercise of love.
D: He got on the cross to save you. D: He went through hell.
M: He didn’t die! D: He was the one that pays the price.
Who rejects him, that’s their decision. M: Then why the fuck did you call? D: Excuse me? D: You can’t be a lot more civil
to someone that calls in without using filthy language? M: Filthy language? Hang on.
First of all, you called to tell us … D: This conversation is over.
God bless you. I hope you see the light. He is the only way. Good bye.
M: Are you done … J: Yeah, she’s hanging up. M: I used a word that [hurt]
Denise’s feelings. It doesn’t surprise me — while we’ll have to put a little
disclaimer on this particular issue — that somebody who is
so muddled in their thinking and so afraid of the irrational would give magic powers to words. It’s four letters, phonemes,
they don’t have any magical powers, it’s a way of expressing
an exclamation mark. You called, and when
things got too heated, you tried to do this,
“Well, it’s all up to you guys, and if you reject him,
that’s your responsibility etc.” Which was your way of giving up. All you wanted was call in,
state your opinion and move on. When I asked you,
why the fuck did you call, I wasn’t cursing you out, I was exclaiming that this is absurd,
for you to call in and do this. To call in and pretend
like you’re going to defend your beliefs, and when they’re challenged
to a point that you can’t defend them, you cry that your feelings got hurt because somebody
used a word that was scary. It’s no wonder you’re still stuck
in this mindset of being afraid of fantasy, if one little word sends you screaming “the poor atheists have beaten up on me and are saying offensive things!” J: Can we spend a little time
on “we send ourselves to hell”? That is, I’m holding a gun
to your head, telling you to give me 100 dollars, don’t make me shoot you. That’s what it is. That’s their arrangement. No, if Matt refuses
to give me 100 dollars, he did not commit suicide. M: It’s why I’ve used
the mafia boss analogy before. It’s why I asked if you thought
your god created hell. Because the mafia boss
creates the scenario where, hey, we can protect you,
but you’ve got to pay, and when somebody breaks
my thumbs for not paying, it wasn’t my choice. You’re saying my choice is
to pay or get my ass kicked. And in your theology my choice is to accept something [impossible]
because it’s irrational without evidence and then go the step further of becoming worshipful
and adherent to this fantasy. Well, I won’t do it. Because I see what happens
when people [do that]. Even if I could convince myself
to accept the delusion, it is harmful, immoral, and your
theology is immoral. What you’re saying about
there being a literal hell and god gets to wash his hands of it.
It’s all completely immoral. You have lost your own sense
of dignity, self-respect, humanity and morality.
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